Comments on: Voice campaigner cut her teeth in the Alice

By: Charlie Carter

Charlie Carter — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 23:45:25 +0000

Evelyne, I respectfully suggest that Maya’s written English may be a little more precise than yours.
Susan, I think Frank has answered you. The “poor choices” are at least in part outcomes of the situation, rather than the causes.
And if I had end stage kidney disease I may make the choice not to spend my last days hooked up to a machine. Particularly if it meant being in an alien environment away from family and friends.
I am unsure of the meaning of your last sentence.
Do you mean “succeed” for the referendum?
Or “succeed” closing the gap.
Again, I think Frank has answered.
“Glimmer of hope” and “may improve”.
Also, the Uluru statement said: “We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution.”
The referendum is a direct response to that request.

By: Susan Sidler

Susan Sidler — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 08:12:20 +0000

@ Frank and Charlie: Here are some true stories:
Despite the urging of doctors and nurses, and his lived experience of many relatives passing away, a man with end stage kidney disease was rushed to hospital where he eventually died. He ignored the bookings he had for dialysis.
Did he have a choice?
A woman has diabetes but ignored the repeated pleas of health staff to accept treatment. The uncontrolled high blood glucose damaged every organ in her body and she ended up in a wheelchair in the Old Timers where she currently resides.
Did she have a choice?
A young man avoided a jail sentence through a diversionary program on his community requiring only a token effort on his part. He was given vast encouragement but refused to engage with the program, offended again and was given another diversion. Again he refused to engage and reoffended. He was jailed.
Was there an alternative to jail for this man and could he have chosen it?
Teachers are begging children to attend school on remote communities. Most schools now offer incentives for attendance (a new bike for Xmas for attending more than 60% of the year is one example). But attendance is very poor and many kids choose not to go to school at all.
Do the kids and their parents have a genuine choice?
Is the choice in these examples removed by historical dispossession, slaughter, flogging etc?
If it is, why are outcomes for people who came to settlements in the 1960s and suffered none of these horrors equally as bad as the others?
Aboriginal people make choices in the way they live their lives, just as we all do.
You could have 10 doctors and 20 nurses on every community and health outcomes would be very similar until different choices are made.
To succeed, the Voice needs to be a lot more than giving Aboriginal people a stronger say in what government should do to close the gap.

By: Evelyne Roullet

Evelyne Roullet — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 02:48:42 +0000

@ Frank Baarda: Thank you!
@ Charlie Carter: Thank you for bringing a smile on my face by you advice. Maya is a good old friend; my French and my English are as good as hers but my Italian and Arabic are not as good as hers.(=)

By: Frank Baarda

Frank Baarda — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 01:21:56 +0000

@ Charlie, Evelyne and Susan: Nice to see people having a serious thought about this referendum, rather than simply accepting the platitudes, propaganda, slogans and lies of the campaigns.
To sheet this down to “lifetime choices” however is in my opinion simplistic and a classic case of blaming the victims. As I see it Aborigines aren’t given much choice. The residents of Oombulgurri certainly weren’t given a choice when they were evicted and their community bulldozed.
You might recall that the WA Government initiative to close down communities was supported by Prime Minister Abbott on the basis that the Federal Government was not prepared to fund “lifestyle choices”.
A Voice at least offers a glimmer of hope of addressing what the Uluru Statement refers to as “This is the torment of our powerlessness”.
A line in Lucky Dube’s song ‘Victims’ comes to mind: “They are the victims of the situation.”
You never know, a YES vote may improve the situation.

By: Charlie Carter

Charlie Carter — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 00:27:40 +0000

Susan, I will ignore your unsubstantiated allegations about “lifestyle choices” except to add a few that you might consider: Dispossession, slaughter, flogging, chaining, removing children, and very recently removing human rights (the Intervention).
I will answer your question.
“So is the Voice just a mechanism for Aboriginal people to have a say about the problems white Australia sees in their society rather than their problems?”
The answer is clearly NO.
The Voice is a specific request from the most comprehensive consultation ever held with Aboriginal people from across Australia, leading to 250 delegates at the Uluru convention.

By: Charlie Carter

Charlie Carter — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 00:10:46 +0000

Evelyne: So it seems that you are asking questions to which you already know the answers.
Or asking for definitions of phrases that have an accepted and widely understood meaning, like “adequate scrutiny” and “broader public”.
To what purpose?
It would seem to be to sow confusion.
The reference to the Republic referendum is even more puzzling.
You quote the question which very clearly defines that the President would be
“appointed by a two-thirds majority of the members of the Commonwealth Parliament”.
And then you say: “But no one could explain the election of the President.”
I don’t understand. Perhaps Maya Cifali could translate it for you.

By: Susan Sidler

Susan Sidler — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 06:45:13 +0000

@ Charlie Carter: “The research indicates that when people are given a say in addressing their problems, the outcomes are better.”
But what does this really mean?
Take the poor health outcomes: Aboriginal ill health is overwhelmingly caused by lifestyle choices, poor diets, sedentary lives, smoking and a high consumption of alcohol, squalid living conditions even in good housing etc.
None of these underlying factors can be resolved by government.
Health education has been prominent and well funded for at least two decades without effect.
It seems that poor health is actually more collateral damage to a chosen lifestyle and not a major concern for remote Aboriginal residents.
Is the high rate of incarceration really seen as a problem by Aboriginal people or is it just accepted as part of being Aboriginal?
So is the Voice just a mechanism for Aboriginal people to have a say about the problems white Australia sees in their society rather than their problems?
What do you think?

By: Evelyne Roullet

Evelyne Roullet — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 00:48:17 +0000

Thank you Charlie, but I am not a newcomer in politics and I do research before asking questions.
Voice.gov.au is the prime example of politicians talks and does not answer my questions.
With great respect, do you have an opinion on the subject and could you explain better than giving me to read what I can do by myself?
Quotes from voice.gov.au:
1. If the referendum passes, there would be a process with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, the Parliament and the broader public to settle the Voice design. How the broader public will be selected?
2. Legislation to establish the Voice would then go through standard parliamentary processes to ensure adequate scrutiny by elected representatives in both houses of Parliament. What means adequate scrutiny?
3. This would ensure the Voice can evolve and adapt as circumstances change, while upholding the authority of Parliament to legislate the Voice.
The last sentence is even more of a concern to me.
Are we asked to decide yes or no on a project not even defined?
There is a way to ask questions accordingly with the answer you seek.
It is similar to the referendum for the republic 1999.
“To alter the Constitution to establish the Commonwealth of Australia as a republic with the Queen and Governor-General being replaced by a President appointed by a two-thirds majority of the members of the Commonwealth Parliament.”
But no one could explain the election of the President or how the candidates would be selected hence a lot of willing republicans, like myself, refused to said yes to the unknown.
Will the proposed Voice suffer the same outcome?

By: Charlie Carter

Charlie Carter — Sun, 03 Sep 2023 01:09:19 +0000

Evelyne, I suggest you start with voice.gov.au

By: Evelyne Roullet

Evelyne Roullet — Fri, 01 Sep 2023 05:01:58 +0000

@ Charlie Carter, you wrote: “And the important message is, that what we are doing at the moment isn’t working.
And again, the research indicates that when people are given a say in addressing their problems, the outcomes are better.” I think everyone will agree with this.
But my questions are as follow after I studied the information booklet.
1. If the referendum passes, there will be a process with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities and the broader public to design the Voice. Does it mean that the Voice has not be designed yet?
2. Introduce Voice establishment legislation to Parliament:mA bill will then be developed to establish the Voice. This would be introduced to Parliament and may be referred to a parliamentary committee to suggest ways to improve it. Parliament decides if it becomes law. Once again nothing is really defined?
3. Implementation: Once Parliament approves the legislation to establish the Voice, the legislation comes into effect and the work to set up the Voice begins. How many months or years before this is done?
4. The Voice would be subject to standard governance and reporting requirements to ensure transparency and accountability. To whom the Voice will answer?
5.The Voice would have its own resources to allow it to research, develop and make representations. How will the Voice be financed?